Okay, back to various collectibles...
I'll start off with a few small things.
Yes, I have a DRR hat badge, along with a couple of DL hat buttons (the ones with the castle in brass) and an assortment of DL uniform buttons in brass and nickel. But I also have about three dozen Retlaw 7/8th inch uniform buttons. (I have no idea what I'll ever do with those...)
I have the usual paper, too. A SF&D yellow paper ticket with all of the coupons still attached, a red SF&D ticket with no coupons, some Santa Fe and Southern Pacific brochures promting Disneyland vacations, the Union Pacific City of Los Angeles dining car menus (the Town Square and Sleeping Beauty Castle ones), SF&D pre-park promotional brochure and a DRR operations manual, misc post cards and posters, and the pins -- official and not. I also have the ticket from my ride on the Lilly Belle.
Various pins, watches, hat and who knows what else squirreled away...
Disney Train Collectibles - What have you got? What do you want?
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- 8000 post Engineer
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The concept of "collectibles" can be a little touchy, and I hesitated when I posted this thread. The same issue confronts those who collect railroadiana.
On a model railroad Forum I also frequent, I mentioned a few of the railroad items a good friend has has, such as NYC builder's plates, bells, whistles, etc. I was chided for "glamorizing" railroadiana collecting, which, according to the poster, would lead to the theft of such items from railroad museums and static locomotives.
Now, my friend never stole anything from any museum or steam engine; everything in his collection was purchased or traded through respected collectors. Does that mean some of the items in his collection were stolen? He doesn't believe so, but then again, sometimes one never knows.
The same goes for Disneyland Railroad collectibles. I mean, there are collectibles, and then there are collectibles! Postcards, pins, etc. are all collectible, but some of us have items in our collections that perhaps weren't ever meant to be in anyone's collections.
Costume pieces, for example. Many of us who collect DRR items have at least one or two conductor hat badges. But should we? Where does one draw the line between "collectible" and "stolen property?" How about SF&D items that the park would probably have thrown out anyway? What about current hat badges? What about discarded locomotive and car fittings? Are these fair game?
Anyway, I do have several items in my collection that are, um...how shall I say it..."unique." I acquired them from respectible sources, and didn't ask how they were obtained. But do I wonder about the ethics of having them? Sometimes. But did people in the 1960s worry about ethics when they were scooping animation cels from dumpsters because Disney was trashing them? Did these collectors actually end up saving pieces of Disney history that Disney didn't care about (at the time)? Are we the better because these folks had the foresight to "steal" them from Disney?
Anyway, enough rambling. What are your thoughts on the subject?
Edited By Steve DeGaetano on 1101753392
On a model railroad Forum I also frequent, I mentioned a few of the railroad items a good friend has has, such as NYC builder's plates, bells, whistles, etc. I was chided for "glamorizing" railroadiana collecting, which, according to the poster, would lead to the theft of such items from railroad museums and static locomotives.
Now, my friend never stole anything from any museum or steam engine; everything in his collection was purchased or traded through respected collectors. Does that mean some of the items in his collection were stolen? He doesn't believe so, but then again, sometimes one never knows.
The same goes for Disneyland Railroad collectibles. I mean, there are collectibles, and then there are collectibles! Postcards, pins, etc. are all collectible, but some of us have items in our collections that perhaps weren't ever meant to be in anyone's collections.
Costume pieces, for example. Many of us who collect DRR items have at least one or two conductor hat badges. But should we? Where does one draw the line between "collectible" and "stolen property?" How about SF&D items that the park would probably have thrown out anyway? What about current hat badges? What about discarded locomotive and car fittings? Are these fair game?
Anyway, I do have several items in my collection that are, um...how shall I say it..."unique." I acquired them from respectible sources, and didn't ask how they were obtained. But do I wonder about the ethics of having them? Sometimes. But did people in the 1960s worry about ethics when they were scooping animation cels from dumpsters because Disney was trashing them? Did these collectors actually end up saving pieces of Disney history that Disney didn't care about (at the time)? Are we the better because these folks had the foresight to "steal" them from Disney?
Anyway, enough rambling. What are your thoughts on the subject?
Edited By Steve DeGaetano on 1101753392
Steve
The latest edition of Welcome Aboard the Disneyland Railroad! is now available to pre-order, with a special price for Burnslanders! You can read more about the book and pre-order a copy from http://www.burnsland.com/store/dlrrbook.shtml
The latest edition of Welcome Aboard the Disneyland Railroad! is now available to pre-order, with a special price for Burnslanders! You can read more about the book and pre-order a copy from http://www.burnsland.com/store/dlrrbook.shtml
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- Passenger
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A fair question. The legal question of materials that have been thrown out was settled in the 1970s, at least in the U.S., when Henry Kissinger sued a journalist for rooting through, and taking items from, his family's trash. The judge ruled that anything that has been thrown out is in the public domain, and the journalist published his findings (he noted that the family had a habit of throwing out the New York Times unread).
There are those who disagree with that ruling, and we move into a grey area. I'm reminded of the story of the "C.P. Huntington," the famous little CP #3. Built as a 4-2-4T, its diminutive size made it quickly outdated and it finished its first career as a construction engine and weed burner. Orders came to let the engine go for scrap, but the Sacramento shopmen had developed such affection for it that they hid the locomotive under a pile of junk and persuaded the bookkeepers to make it 'disappear' on paper. It was magically rediscovered by the SP in 1894 and went on to a second career of public appearances and even movie roles before it was donated to the state of California in 1964.
[img]http://www.csrmf.org/images/locomotives ... ington.gif[/img]
Did the Sacramento employees have any right to defy the owner's wishes? Certainly no one ever held it against them, including the SP. This is a fairly benign example, given that no one had any desire to wrest ownership away from the SP and the railroad later changed its mind. But this being America, nobody would dispute someone's right to do whatever he wants with his private property, including taking it out on the back forty and blowing it up for kicks. What considerations could override this? If an object has historical significance, if it is important to everyone whose history touches on it, and the owner no longer cares about it, is it right and reasonable to just take it away from him? In a perfect world, he'd give it up willingly, but this world is far from perfect. Could we argue that the owner has a moral or ethical obligation to give it up? Would it be right to take it from him by stealth?
I can't help thinking of the action flick The Train, in which WWII Nazis and the French Resistance do battle over a train loaded with French art treasures. Thwarted, the German Colonel von Waldheim (played by the great British actor Paul Scofield) spits invective at his adversary: "Labiche! Here's your prize, Labiche. Some of the greatest paintings in the world. Does it please you, Labiche? Give you a sense of excitement in just being near them? A painting means as much to you as a string of pearls to an ape . . . You are nothing, Labiche -- a lump of flesh. The paintings are mine; they always will be; beauty belongs to the man who can appreciate it! They will always belong to me or to a man like me."
[img]http://www.culturecourt.com/F/Nazi/Train1.jpg[/img]
That I'm finding significance in the words of a fictional Nazi should give you some idea of how clouded this issue is. I doubt the Sacramento conspirators were philosophizing this deeply when they saved the "Huntington." They probably just liked the little teakettle and figured it wouldn't hurt anything to spare it from the torch.
So in the end, what does this mean for those of us who enjoy decorating our houses with marker lights and number plates? How should we conduct ourselves, we who snatch up animation cels and hat badges and uniform buttons and other flotsam the Disney colossus has forgotten as it imprinted itself on the world's consciousness over the last three-quarters of a century? My inner romantic responds: beauty belongs to the man who can appreciate it.
My inner lawyer, however, urges me otherwise.
P.S. Rather than open up a new debate about my use of the images shown here, here are some credits: they're from the California State Railroad Museum homepage and Film Court, respectively.
There are those who disagree with that ruling, and we move into a grey area. I'm reminded of the story of the "C.P. Huntington," the famous little CP #3. Built as a 4-2-4T, its diminutive size made it quickly outdated and it finished its first career as a construction engine and weed burner. Orders came to let the engine go for scrap, but the Sacramento shopmen had developed such affection for it that they hid the locomotive under a pile of junk and persuaded the bookkeepers to make it 'disappear' on paper. It was magically rediscovered by the SP in 1894 and went on to a second career of public appearances and even movie roles before it was donated to the state of California in 1964.
[img]http://www.csrmf.org/images/locomotives ... ington.gif[/img]
Did the Sacramento employees have any right to defy the owner's wishes? Certainly no one ever held it against them, including the SP. This is a fairly benign example, given that no one had any desire to wrest ownership away from the SP and the railroad later changed its mind. But this being America, nobody would dispute someone's right to do whatever he wants with his private property, including taking it out on the back forty and blowing it up for kicks. What considerations could override this? If an object has historical significance, if it is important to everyone whose history touches on it, and the owner no longer cares about it, is it right and reasonable to just take it away from him? In a perfect world, he'd give it up willingly, but this world is far from perfect. Could we argue that the owner has a moral or ethical obligation to give it up? Would it be right to take it from him by stealth?
I can't help thinking of the action flick The Train, in which WWII Nazis and the French Resistance do battle over a train loaded with French art treasures. Thwarted, the German Colonel von Waldheim (played by the great British actor Paul Scofield) spits invective at his adversary: "Labiche! Here's your prize, Labiche. Some of the greatest paintings in the world. Does it please you, Labiche? Give you a sense of excitement in just being near them? A painting means as much to you as a string of pearls to an ape . . . You are nothing, Labiche -- a lump of flesh. The paintings are mine; they always will be; beauty belongs to the man who can appreciate it! They will always belong to me or to a man like me."
[img]http://www.culturecourt.com/F/Nazi/Train1.jpg[/img]
That I'm finding significance in the words of a fictional Nazi should give you some idea of how clouded this issue is. I doubt the Sacramento conspirators were philosophizing this deeply when they saved the "Huntington." They probably just liked the little teakettle and figured it wouldn't hurt anything to spare it from the torch.
So in the end, what does this mean for those of us who enjoy decorating our houses with marker lights and number plates? How should we conduct ourselves, we who snatch up animation cels and hat badges and uniform buttons and other flotsam the Disney colossus has forgotten as it imprinted itself on the world's consciousness over the last three-quarters of a century? My inner romantic responds: beauty belongs to the man who can appreciate it.
My inner lawyer, however, urges me otherwise.
P.S. Rather than open up a new debate about my use of the images shown here, here are some credits: they're from the California State Railroad Museum homepage and Film Court, respectively.
- Locoboy5150
- 4000 post Engineer
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- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:17 am
- Location: San Jose, California
- Contact:
I often wonder the exact same things Steve. I'm more of a preservationist and I do not have any items that were stolen or are not licensed products available to everyone. I also have never come across a bell, whistle, or Cooke builder's plate from a D.,S.P.&P.R.R. mogul just lying there in the street either. If I did...well then I probably would most definitely snatch it up in a millisecond! :laugh:
I thought about this subject in the past not with railroads in mind, but amusement park rides and carousels in particular. Carousel enthusiasts seem to not think twice about buying classic carousel horses for display in their homes. I've often wondered about that compared to donating the money towards restoring the carousel that the horses originally came from. Some parks in need of revenue will auction off their horses to the highest bidders, but I've often wondered if the people buying them didn't feel a little bit bad about not simply giving their money to the parks directly instead so they can then put the money towards restoring the carousel.
I'm admittedly looking at all this through the eyes of a roller coaster enthusiast though and, generally speaking, us guys would much rather *ride* a classic roller coaster than *own* a piece of it.
I thought about this subject in the past not with railroads in mind, but amusement park rides and carousels in particular. Carousel enthusiasts seem to not think twice about buying classic carousel horses for display in their homes. I've often wondered about that compared to donating the money towards restoring the carousel that the horses originally came from. Some parks in need of revenue will auction off their horses to the highest bidders, but I've often wondered if the people buying them didn't feel a little bit bad about not simply giving their money to the parks directly instead so they can then put the money towards restoring the carousel.
I'm admittedly looking at all this through the eyes of a roller coaster enthusiast though and, generally speaking, us guys would much rather *ride* a classic roller coaster than *own* a piece of it.
"Hello folks. Welcome aboard the Disneyland Railroad."
- Thurl Ravenscroft 1914-2005 -
Locoboy5150@hotmail.com
- Thurl Ravenscroft 1914-2005 -
Locoboy5150@hotmail.com
I was faced with this question very squarely once. A friend had a stroke that prevented him from working, and he was selling off his collection to make up the difference between Social Security and expenses.
He offered me a nice builder's plate from a Western Pacific locomotive, since he knew I modeled that line. I was more than happy to buy it off him -- he was a good enough friend I'd have given him the same amount of money if his pride had permitted it. But I had to check something first.
Sure enough, it was off the WP consolidation parked in Travel Town at Griffith Park in Los Angeles. As such, the plate "belonged" to that locomotive in my mind, and while I knew my friend had aquired it honestly, somewhere back there a loco had lost an important part (legally or not) and deserved to have it back.
As the locos at Travel Town are open to the ravages of the "Children of Los Angeles" (or so reads the deed), it wasn't really reasonable to try putting it back on the locomotive (to be promptly stolen). Instead, I convinced my friend to return it to the LA Parks Dept. for preservation, and offered him a reward for such a return equal to the price he'd offered me.
It just seemed like the right thing to do.
Now had it been from any of the WP locos that had been scrapped, that would have been a very different story....
Edited By Zazu on 1101783043
He offered me a nice builder's plate from a Western Pacific locomotive, since he knew I modeled that line. I was more than happy to buy it off him -- he was a good enough friend I'd have given him the same amount of money if his pride had permitted it. But I had to check something first.
Sure enough, it was off the WP consolidation parked in Travel Town at Griffith Park in Los Angeles. As such, the plate "belonged" to that locomotive in my mind, and while I knew my friend had aquired it honestly, somewhere back there a loco had lost an important part (legally or not) and deserved to have it back.
As the locos at Travel Town are open to the ravages of the "Children of Los Angeles" (or so reads the deed), it wasn't really reasonable to try putting it back on the locomotive (to be promptly stolen). Instead, I convinced my friend to return it to the LA Parks Dept. for preservation, and offered him a reward for such a return equal to the price he'd offered me.
It just seemed like the right thing to do.
Now had it been from any of the WP locos that had been scrapped, that would have been a very different story....
Edited By Zazu on 1101783043
[color=blue][b]Zazu[/b][/color]
Well, very interesting. The WP 94's bell was one of those kind of things. We know it was on the locomotive in the WP's Oakland roundhouse once upon a time, but someone helped themselves to it before we got the locomotive.
Now here's something I haven't seen before...
Reltaw Executive Pass on eBay?
Now here's something I haven't seen before...
Reltaw Executive Pass on eBay?
"Mongo not know where choo-choo go. Only pawn in game of life."
www.theblueparrot.info
Disney, Pop Culture and Entertainment. 6 Days A Week.
www.theblueparrot.info
Disney, Pop Culture and Entertainment. 6 Days A Week.
- IDMT129
- 3000 post Engineer
- Posts: 3048
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:26 pm
- Location: FaceBook, Menlo Park
I have loved the Disneyland engines for years and years. It started with my father's love of trains and I have now passed that on to my sons.
I own a Disneyland RR engineer soft cover, the All Aboard denim jacket, a RR spike from Disneyland (the Carolwood edition not the park produced one) the DRR Whistle, and various park attraction posters and pins. Steve's Ripley litho and a litho of Gurley.
My crowning pieces are my Main St station clock, "G" scale Earnest S. Marsh and Lilly Belle. I did break down and buy the Fred Gurley offered by LGB, but only because I found it for dirt cheap, under $850!!!
The coolest thing is my live steamer FWRR engine and an actual piece of the cab interior to Michael Campbell's engine #4. What a pal!
I own a Disneyland RR engineer soft cover, the All Aboard denim jacket, a RR spike from Disneyland (the Carolwood edition not the park produced one) the DRR Whistle, and various park attraction posters and pins. Steve's Ripley litho and a litho of Gurley.
My crowning pieces are my Main St station clock, "G" scale Earnest S. Marsh and Lilly Belle. I did break down and buy the Fred Gurley offered by LGB, but only because I found it for dirt cheap, under $850!!!
The coolest thing is my live steamer FWRR engine and an actual piece of the cab interior to Michael Campbell's engine #4. What a pal!
- Chris
- 1000 post Engineer
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- Location: San Mateo California
- Contact:
The Hartland Ward Kimball locomotive is coming out this summer at the aniversery. I am just starting to save my money to get it and I am very excited. I have got a Hartland Lilly Belle, an L.G.B. Columbus that was converted to a Fred Gurley, the Grizzly Flats Railroad Chloe and cars, both Walter E. Disney train sets in Ho and G scale, a Bachmann Eureka & Palisade locomotive (though its not a Disney engine, it meets the expectations), the Walt Disney World Monorail set. and the huge poster with the C.K.Holiday on it. (It is the same poster that you would find at all the DLRR Stations.) I am looking for an Ernest S. Marsh in G scale and I am waiting for a Hartland C.K. Holiday along with the other DLRR engines, The Hartland WDWRR engines, and the Accucraft Casey Jr.
Edited By Chris on 1109302892
Edited By Chris on 1109302892
"SHORT!" "WHO ARE YOU CALLING SHORT?!" (Edward Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist)
"OH NO NOT THE ENCHANTED BEEDS AGAIN!" (Inuyasha, Inuyasha)
"INUYASHA!" "SIT BOY!" (Kagome, Inuyasha)
"OH NO NOT THE ENCHANTED BEEDS AGAIN!" (Inuyasha, Inuyasha)
"INUYASHA!" "SIT BOY!" (Kagome, Inuyasha)
- Tracks N Slabs
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- Chris
- 1000 post Engineer
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- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:16 pm
- Location: San Mateo California
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Not many, and also if I had all those trains, sercurity would be looking through my bags for hours! :laugh:
Edited By Chris on 1105170168
Edited By Chris on 1105170168
"SHORT!" "WHO ARE YOU CALLING SHORT?!" (Edward Elric, Fullmetal Alchemist)
"OH NO NOT THE ENCHANTED BEEDS AGAIN!" (Inuyasha, Inuyasha)
"INUYASHA!" "SIT BOY!" (Kagome, Inuyasha)
"OH NO NOT THE ENCHANTED BEEDS AGAIN!" (Inuyasha, Inuyasha)
"INUYASHA!" "SIT BOY!" (Kagome, Inuyasha)